Vegan reply to plants, sentience and 'Do you agree that our moral charge towards organisms relies on their degree of sentience'

Ron,
There is a difference between reacting on stimulus and between being sentient. Plants are not subjectively aware, i.e. they are not sentient. They don’t feel any subjective pain.

 

Yes, they react. But that doesn’t imply that they are sentient.

“Do you agree that our moral charge towards organisms relies on their degree of sentience?“
No, either you are sentient or you are not sentient. If you are sentient, you value your own life even if no one else is valuing your life. You have an inherent value. The speciecism of many humans doesn’t change your inherent value.
If you are not sentient, you are not subjectively aware, you are a thing and not a being.

Philosophies that grant different value compared to different sentient species are speciecist. This is discussed here: http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/do-chimpanzees-dolphins-and-elephants-matter-more/

 

“Plants have nervous systems with many neuronal connections.”
No, they don’t. Their stimulus response is caused by chemical reactions.

 

It is well-known scientifically that animals are conscious and feel pain, and that plants are not conscious and don’t feel pain.
See e.g. this about plants: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=do-plants-think-daniel-chamovitz
“Plants exhibit elements of anoetic consciousness which doesn’t include, in my understanding, the ability to think.  Just as a plant can’t suffer subjective pain in the absence of a brain, I also don’t think that it thinks.”

What do you think of this article: http://blog.nj.com/njv_guest_blog/2013/08/are_we_the_animal-lovers_we_th.html ?

Question to vegan: Moral difference between killing an animal and eating a plant?

A person wrote:
" Since plants have life too, as you noted earlier, then it doesn't seem to me we should stop at killing and eating meat, we should also stop killing and eating plants, right?"

I don't believe you think cutting the grass is comparable to stabbing a dog. We recognize that stabbing a dog is immoral because that it causes unnecessary suffering and death upon a sentient being, which is also why we should be morally opposed to the industralized animal abuse in the meat-, milk and egg industry, hunting, and any other unnecessary killing.

I recommend this post about plants: http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/a-frequently-asked-question-what-about-plants/

It shows that plants are not sentient and they don't feel pain and suffering.
If you still think that plants are consciousness, just like we are and all the other animals are, then avoid killing them. You don't need to. See the paragraph further down.

If you kill and eat cows - then you kill an innocent and sentient cow; and in total you consume more than 10 times more plants are consumed (the food of the cow) compared to the amount of plants you would have had to consume if you ate a vegan diet. This is also why we will eliminate starvation and poverty if everyone eats a vegan diet: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fws0f9s4Bas

"Poor countries sell their grain to the West while their own children starve in their arms. And we feed it to livestock. So we can eat a steak? Am I the only one who sees this as a crime? Every morsel of meat we eat is slapping the tear-stained face of a starving child. When I look into her eyes, should I be silent?
The earth can produce enough for everyone’s need. But not enough for everyone’s greed."

You can just eat the seeds of the plants and not kill the plants, if you believe that plants are sentient: http://bloganders.blogspot.se/2013/05/the-connection-of-eating-meat-and.html

I showed in my last comment why it is unethical to consume any kind of animal Products.
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It is well-known scientifically that animals are conscious and feel pain, and that plants are not conscious and don’t feel pain.
See e.g. this about plants: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=do-plants-think-daniel-chamovitz
“Plants exhibit elements of anoetic consciousness which doesn’t include, in my understanding, the ability to think.  Just as a plant can’t suffer subjective pain in the absence of a brain, I also don’t think that it thinks.”

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Another post:
It has been mentioned previously in this thread. I think that everyone understand the moral difference between uprooting a plant and killing an animal. If we saw someone abusing an animal we would step in and protect the animal, if someone is stepping on, or cutting grass, or cutting down a tree, we don’t believe this is harming any sentient being.
Learn more in this article: http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/a-frequently-asked-question-what-about-plants/#.UciBjJxW6nk
The people who still believe that plants are sentient, can eat of the seeds and the fruits without uprooting any plant.

When it comes to consuming animals, however, it is clear that this isn’t ethical. I will show why.
“Most people would agree with the proposition that it’s wrong to inflict unnecessary suffering and death on animals. We could have an interesting philosophical discussion about what 'necessity' means but the reality is if it means anything, if it means anything at all, it means we can’t justify suffering and death for reasons of pleasure, amusement or convenience.

If we had a rule that said, ‘It’s wrong to inflict unnecessary suffering on children, but it’s OK to beat them if you enjoy watching them suffer’, that would create an exception that would not only be perverse but would make the rule silly.
Similarly if we say it’s wrong to inflict suffering and death on animals, well what’s our justification for eating meat? We don’t need to eat animals to be optimally healthy. I have been a vegan for going on now 31 years and I would daresay that I have more energy and suffer from fewer colds and viruses than most of the people I teach who are young enough to be my grandchildren. So the idea that you need animal products to be optimally healthy is simply false.

The best justification that we have for inflicting suffering and death on 56 billion animals a year is that they taste good. We are saying it’s wrong to inflict unnecessary suffering on animals, but on the other hand we participate in this all the time. “
Quote: http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/scienceshow/vege-mice-response/4674360

Reply to counter argument to vegans. Vegans are killing plants

Why show love  to e.g. dogs and cats; but not to all other animals. There is no difference between the animals we love, and between the animals we hurt, kill and enslave for palate pleasure. A small child would never dream of hurting precious animals, they are his/her friends; to kill and hurt animals is something that is taught by our cultural indoctrination and by excluding animals from our circle of love and compassion at our meals.

Plants?
People do recognize the different between cutting a grass lawn, and between killing an innocent puppy or human. If receiving guests, you would appreciate flowers, but you wouldn't appreciate getting a dead dog. I recommend this post about plants: http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/a-frequently-asked-question-what-about-plants/

It shows that plants are not sentient and they don't feel pain and suffering.
If you still think that plants are consciousness, just like we are and all the other animals are, then avoid killing them. You don't need to. See the paragraph further down.

If you kill and eat cows - then you kill an innocent and conscious cow; and  in total you consume more than 10 times more plants are consumed (the food of the cow) compared to the amount of plants you would have had to consume if you ate a vegan diet. This is also why we will eliminate starvation and poverty if everyone eats a vegan diet: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fws0f9s4Bas

To quote Philip Wollen: "Poor countries sell their grain to the West while their own children starve in their arms. And we feed it to livestock. So we can eat a steak? Am I the only one who sees this as a crime? Every morsel of meat we eat is slapping the tear-stained face of a starving child. When I look into her eyes, should I be silent?
The earth can produce enough for everyone’s need. But not enough for everyone’s greed."
More about how our eating habits is causing poverty and starvation is explained here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fws0f9s4Bas

Second of all, if you think that plants are sentient beings, you don't need to uproot plants. You can eat their fruits, grains, and seeds. See the last part of this post for more information (I don't want to make this comment too lengthy): http://bloganders.blogspot.no/2013/05/the-connection-of-eating-meat-and.html

The connection of eating meat and starvation

My answer regarding plants to a person:
First of all, I recommend this post about plants: http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/a-frequently-asked-question-what-about-plants/

It shows that plants are not sentient and they don't feel pain and suffering.
If you still think that plants are consciousness, just like we are and all the other animals are, then avoid killing them. You don't need to. See the paragraph further down.

If you kill and eat cows - then you kill an innocent and conscious cow; and  in total you consume more than 10 times more plants are consumed (the food of the cow) compared to the amount of plants you would have had to consume if you ate a vegan diet. This is also why we will eliminate starvation and poverty if everyone eats a vegan diet: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fws0f9s4Bas

To quote Philip Wollen: "Poor countries sell their grain to the West while their own children starve in their arms. And we feed it to livestock. So we can eat a steak? Am I the only one who sees this as a crime? Every morsel of meat we eat is slapping the tear-stained face of a starving child. When I look into her eyes, should I be silent?
The earth can produce enough for everyone’s need. But not enough for everyone’s greed."

Second of all, if you think that plants are sentient beings, think about the following [a quote from another person]:
First off you don't kill plants. (..) If you eat an apple does the apple tree die?
You throw the apple seeds into the ground another apple tree may sprout. Where is the killing?
Do you know that if you planted a carrot top into the soil it will start growing again. Although you won't get a full grown carrot but it does grow.
The only plants you actually "kill" are then ones you need to uproot the roots for.
Take a look at a grain or legume field a soy, rice or wheat field. They are brown when its ready to harvest.

Thats because the plant is dead. I was a part of a seed conservation project.
You cannot conserve seeds from a live plant. Lets take soy. If you plucked the edmame the green raw soy it will rot in some time. Very rarely does it become hard. You have to wait for the plant to die. During this process the seed/legume produces enough phytic acid to protect it and becomes dry natural. Such seeds/legumes stay for years without getting spoiled.
Then plants and humans/animal have a symbiotic relationship. Plants can't move. They need external
help. that is why they produce nectar so they can attract the bees and butterflies that help them cross pollinate the flowers so they can reproduce.

Seeds that fall to the ground from overripe fruits or other plants do not grow into a tree. Because the "parent" plant shade and roots does not allow it to grow.
A human or an animal has to eat that fruit and disperse it far enough so it can grow.
This is how all natural fruit groves have come into existence.
A study found that 80% of all trees were planted by squirrels. They store nuts for winter and then they forget where they have stored it, when monsoon comes these nuts grow into trees.
So that you are killing any plants is just a myth .
If you are concerned about carrots then you can follow Jain Philosophy, Manish Jain Can, help you more with this.
Donald Watson was inspired by Jain philosophy of Ahimsa and Veganism is based on it.
They don't eat carrots, potatoes, and other roots vegetables Manish can help you with what to avoid and what are the alternatives.

Vegan answer 'I eat animals because I don't want to kill plants'

 

First of all, I recommend you to study this answer about plants. Here is a quote:
"

Of course, no one who asks this question really thinks that we cannot distinguish between, say, a chicken and a head of lettuce. That is, if, at your next dinner party, you chop a head of lettuce in front of your guests, you will get a different reaction than if you were to carve a live chicken. If, while walking in your garden, I step on a flower intentionally, you may quite correctly be annoyed with me, but if I intentionally kicked your dog, you would be upset with me in a different way. No one really thinks of these as equivalent acts. Everyone recognizes that there is an important difference between the plant and the dog that make kicking the dog a morally more serious act than stepping on a flower.

The difference between the animal and the plant involves sentience. That is, nonhumans—or at least the ones we routinely exploit—are clearly conscious of sense perceptions. Sentient beings have minds; they have preferences, desires, or wants. This is not to say that animal minds are like human minds. For example, the minds of humans, who use symbolic language to navigate their world, may be very different from the minds of bats, who use echolocation to navigate theirs. It is difficult to know. But it is irrelevant; the human and the bat are both sentient. They are both the sorts of beings who have interests; they both have preferences, desires, or wants. The human and the bat may think differently about those interests, but there can be no serious doubt that both have interests, including an interest in avoiding pain and suffering and an interest in continued existence."
Read more here: http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/a-frequently-asked-question-what-about-plants/

 

Second of all, if you think that plants are sentient beings, think about the following:

First off you don't kill plants. (..) If you eat an apple does the apple tree die?

You throw the apple seeds into the ground another apple tree may sprout. Where is the killing?

Do you know that if you planted a carrot top into the soil it will start growing again. Although you won't get a full grown carrot but it does grow.

The only plants you actually "kill" are then ones you need to uproot the roots for.

Take a look at a grain or legume field a soy, rice or wheat field. They are brown when its ready to harvest.

Thats because the plant is dead. I was a part of a seed conservation project.

You cannot conserve seeds from a live plant. Lets take soy. If you plucked the edmame the green raw soy it will rot in some time. Very rarely does it become hard. You have to wait for the plant to die. During this process the seed/legume produces enough phytic acid to protect it and becomes dry natural. Such seeds/legumes stay for years without getting spoiled.

Then plants and humans/animal have a symbiotic relationship. Plants can't move. They need external help. that is why they produce nectar so they can attract the bees and butterflies that help them cross pollinate the flowers so they can reproduce.

Seeds that fall to the ground from overripe fruits or other plants do not grow into a tree. Because the "parent" plant shade and roots does not allow it to grow.

A human or an animal has to eat that fruit and disperse it far enough so it can grow.

This is how all natural fruit groves have come into existence.

A study found that 80% of all trees were planted by squirrels. They store nuts for winter and then they forget where they have stored it, when monsoon comes these nuts grow into trees.

So get it out of your head that you are killing any plants, that is just a myth .

If you are concerned about carrots then you can follow Jain Philosophy Manish Jain Can help you more with this.

Donald Watson was inspired by Jain philosophy of Ahimsa and Veganism is based on it.

They don't eat carrots, potatoes, and other roots vegetables Manish can help you with what to avoid and what are the alternatives.

-------------More Resources:
 Plants cannot feel pain; one would need nerve receptors to do that. . It was determined that the "feelings" in plants studied in The Plant Perception were only responding to vibrations. Even scientists dismiss the theory in The Plant Perception because the plants do not have a nervous system. Here's your research

http://www.cup.columbia.edu/static/marder-francione-debate

Thankfully we don't need to make excuses for the unnecessary reasons to why we kill animals without moral justification, simply to please our palates. We all have open minds, common sense, and a desire to do the right thing to help us.

www.vegankit.com/why

http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/faqs/#.UYnpS2S9Kc0

Do plants communicate with each other? Are plants sentient?

Knut,
It is very interesting and I am really fascinated of how complex organisms are!!
The researcher I quoted agrees on that plants are communicating. I agree with him on that this doesn’t imply that plants are sentient, thinking beings,  that are able to feel subjective pain.
You can e.g. create robots that are communicating. I think the trees communication is much more complex. But a more complex design, doesn't imply that they are sentient.

The researcher answers the question “Do plants communicate with each other?”:
At a basic level, yes.  But I guess it centers around how you define communication. There is no doubt that plants respond to cues from other plants. For example, if a maple tree is attacked by bugs, it releases a pheromone into the air that is picked up by the neighboring trees. This induces the receiving trees to start making chemicals that will help it fight off the impending bug attack. So on the face of it, this is definitely communication.

http://news.yahoo.com/plants-think-110000318.html