In a discussion on Facebook:
Why does everything has to be black-and-white when it comes to people and their actions?
example, Gary has a really good theory, but I don't agree with all of
his personal interactions on his Facebook-page. Just because you don't
like some things a person do, you don't need to take the extreme that
you have hate, dislike or have "no respect" for a person.
could just believe that he is doing the best he can do help the
animals, but that he gets some overwhelmed and stressed by all attacks
and responses that he gets, and sometimes fails to communicate properly
issue campaigns reinforce Welfarism (I refer to my previous post). No
surprise that many people engaged in these campaigns are not vegans.
That's why some people call people engaging in single issue campaigns
for Welfarists. It is not an insult, just a description.
Jenny Trigg And
I have read through all the comments here, and think Colin has been
incredibly patient. If Professor Gary L Francione took this much time,
he would not have been able to reply to as many people as he has... In
other words I understand why Gary is so short sometimes with some people
who do not seem able to learn.
Rhonda Anderson I
personally don't know if I like GF or not, because I do not know him on
a personal basis, but because I believe animal rights is equally as
important as any other rights, I decided to read his essays and books,
and take them into consideration. Everything I thought after reading and
understanding what was said made complete sense. Veganism IS animal
rights, and its crystal clear that if we all teach veganism rather than
unwittingly perpetuating speciesism through supporting welfare actions,
the sooner the animals will be actually be considered and treated as
equals deserving of justice.
Anna Adey It's
not about you. It's never personal, it's about discussing theories and
ideas to become better informed to help the animals. If you take things
personally and refute philosophies because the person saying them
bruised your ego, and you let that cloud your judgement of doing what's
right for the movement, you are a part of the problem
have never once, nor would I, insist that everyone must accept
Francione's, or anyones viewpoints. I believe it's important to discuss
ideas within a movement and not have every debate dwindle into personal
attacks. Assuming that everyone in this
thread is vegan, I think we are all familiar with people that 'jump in'
and troll threads every time a certain buzzword is used and instead of
starting with a clean slate and actually discussing the issue at hand
respectfully, resorting to ad homs and strawmen arguments, using
often-repeated cliches such as 'you're all or nothing/black and white
thinking/to each its own/you're all in a cult/don't be divisive'
by the way, my message before about small/average/great minds was not
about you. I was referring to your complaint that Francione dare be
critical of Melanie Joy and others. He is critical of their theories,
not them personally! We should all be critical of *all* of their
theories, you can't simply trust that every one has the animals best
interests at heart.
Answer to a persons post:
don't believe Gary loves the 'inner fighting'. Why would he love that?
Maybe he is just opposing single issue campaigns and other "Animal
welfare" groups because that he believes that they are harmful to the
just like most Abolitionists are many times frustrating of hearing the
same objections and excuses for Welfarism over and over again.
Especially when it turns into ad hominem-attacks or other angry verbal
who are blocking other people from promoting certain views on their
pages maybe should be understanding of why an administrator blocks
people from Abolitionist Approach when it clearly says in the guidelines
that one is not allowed to promote a Welfarist agenda on that page.
Maybe they just want people to be able to learn without other people who
lack knowledge of why Welfarism is harmful comes with distorted views
of their position.
A person wrote: " I saw a post that a friend was commenting on in my newsfeed, in which Francione was bashing Vegan Outreach. I came and made a comment to Francione that I had just participated in one event and that it was nice because they were showing "Earthlings" and that a lot of people were stopping and interested. I also told Francione that he should get down from his high chair and stop criticizing everyone and that he was the worst thing that happened to the vegan movement because he is constantly causing seperation between vegans,"
I just want to point out that I am not attacking you or anyone else. Just trying to discuss this kindly.
To publicly call a person that "he is the worst thing that happened to the vegan movement" then it is both offending to the person receiving it and is against the guidelines of their page.
You shouldn't be surprised that an administrator who probably got offended would block you for writing that. If they would allow all that sort of stuff than the Abolitionist Approach-website wouldn't be a place where people can come to learn about Abolitionist veganism. This is what they want.
I don't agree with all of the personal interactions on that page. I think it sometimes can be to rough and that people should express themselves in another way. I am not condoning anyone's behaviour. I am just trying to give a broader perspective, instead of a perspective that sorts of say: "That this is the worst person in the world." It is much better to realize that no person is perfect, and that Gary is likely doing his best out of his own limitations.
I am not defending anyone. I would have been very offended if someone said that to me, misrepresenting my position and claiming that I am "causing separation between vegans" just because that I am publicly opposing single issue campaigns, "Animal welfare reform" and other Welfarism.
I am just saying that you can't judge someone for blocking other people for expressing things that you don't want to hear, when you are blocking people who are expressing things that you don't want to hear. Who does that make sense?
A person said: " He can't take a criticism that's why "
I think that it is true on a personal level that his personal interaction is not always the best with people who criticize him.
And this is also true for very many vegans regardless of whether they are Abolitionists or Welfarists.
But when it comes to handling the arguments against the Abolitionist Approach-theory, he does a good job answering the objections - see e.g. this book (ask your library): http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/books/the-animal-rights-debate-abolition-or-regulation/
And also see the podcast-section of his website.