http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/follow-up-to-pets-commentary-non-vegan-cats/
and this: http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/animal-rights-and-domesticated-nonhumans/#.UaeaZ5xc18E
and this: http://bloganders.blogspot.no/2013/03/vegan-diet-for-dogs-and-cats-what-is.html
Also: FYI: http://www.farmedanimalfriends.org/1/post/2013/05/the-vegan-feline-can-my-feline-companion-be-a-vegan-by-laurie-jeffreys-dvm.html
On Vegan Cats:
I got a very interesting and informative PM on this subject this morning:
"Concerning cat nutrition:
1) I keep seeing people who call cats obligate carnivores. While cats are carnivore in nature, we cannot jump to the conclusion that they are obligate carnivores - especially since many cats live very well (or even better) on plant-based diets.
2) We cannot jump to the conclusion that some cats cannot live on plant-based diets. We can say that some cats don't do well on the vegan cat food **that is available right now** (there really isn't much to choose from!).
3) Many people want to make it sound like either we run a risk by feeding our cats plant-based cat food - or we play it safe for the cats by feeding them meat-based food. But that is not true. Indeed, cat people run different risks by feeding their cats meat-based food: http://www.vegepets.info/
4) The vast majority of vets are not even willing to live vegan themselves. They don't know anything about vegan cat food. And they earn lovely money on selling meat-based cat food - (plus on consultation fees and medicine to mask the troubles that meat-based food often cause). Why would those vets feel motivated to learn about and teach people how to feed their cats plant-based food?!
I hardly ever see point 2, 3 and 4 addressed anywhere, and I find that frustrating."
----------------
Marianna Gonzalez wrote: "I
will respectfully abstain from expressing my opinion about imposing a
vegan diet on an obligate carnivore, as my messages would get deleted
anyways hehehe "
Gary Francione reply:
: There is *nothing* about the life of a domesticated animal that we do not impose. That is the problem. And if a cat can live a healthy life without eating meat, and many can, there is no reason to feed the cat meat.
Gary Francione reply:
: There is *nothing* about the life of a domesticated animal that we do not impose. That is the problem. And if a cat can live a healthy life without eating meat, and many can, there is no reason to feed the cat meat.
--
Marianna
Gonzalez: I am not sure what the disagreement could be here. There are
some simple empirical questions. First, some people say that cats need
meat to get taurine. But it is a fact that most cat food manufacturers
ADD taurine because the processed
meat does not have enough. So, if that is the case, then the taurine
issue disappears because taurine is added in both (meat and vegan)
foods. Second, there is the question: can cats thrive on a vegan diet?
If the answer to that is "yes," then the moral issue would be easy: we
would have an obligation not to feed them other animals.
-------
General Comment: Sometimes (often) I feel that as we are laying the bricks to pave the way to a vegan world, some people are picking up the bricks are hurling them into the trash because in their opinion, the bricks belong in the trash...because they belong in the trash. It sucks.
General Comment: Sometimes (often) I feel that as we are laying the bricks to pave the way to a vegan world, some people are picking up the bricks are hurling them into the trash because in their opinion, the bricks belong in the trash...because they belong in the trash. It sucks.
----
Camilla Allegret Tabitha
Martin, if you care about the welfare of cats, you can't possibly feel
good about feeding them meat-based cat food, which is linked to many
diseases, including kidney, liver, heart, neurologic, visual,
neuromuscular and skin diseases, bleeding disorders, birth defects,
immunocompromisation and infectious diseases:
http://www.vegepets.info/diets/meat.html#toc12
Please educate yourself further on this great page made by a veterinarian who has specialized in cat and dog nutrition:
http://www.vegepets.info/
http://www.vegepets.info/diets/meat.html#toc12
Please educate yourself further on this great page made by a veterinarian who has specialized in cat and dog nutrition:
http://www.vegepets.info/
--
Camilla Allegret Margherita
Pasquini, you will never find *any* cat food that is proven 100 % safe.
There is no such thing in life as "proven 100 % safe". We all need to
do the necessary critical research and take the responsability for our
own choises. Try to ask yourself why you are willing to run the risk of
feeding your cats meat-based food - linked to many diseases as I pointed
out above - and take it from there.
Camilla Allegret If
someone has cats who die within two weeks after changing their diets, I
would say that something was done very, very wrong! That, however,
doesn't change the points I stated above about the risks of meat-based
cat food. Many cats live very well on plant-based diets. Fact. Some cats
experience improved health by changing from meat-based to plant-based
diets. Fact. (I have one example here with me).
Camilla Allegret I
fail to see which point you want to make concerning cat shelters. Most
cat shelters feed the cats meat-based food. Some feed the cats
plant-based food. No cat should ever have to be in a shelter. That is a
problem caused by domestication and irresponsability - not by veganism.
Gary L. Francione: The Abolitionist Approach to Animal Rights Margherita Pasquini: I think you are ill-informed on the cat veganism issue but I am curious about whether you are yourself vegan. Can you tell me?
Gary L. Francione: The Abolitionist Approach to Animal Rights Jeff Perz:
"Should" is a funny word here. I have said that it may be excusable to
feed a cat animal products if the particular cat cannot survive
otherwise. I have never said it's justifiable and the more I learn about
the matter, the more I am convinced that there are very few cats who
fall into that group.
8 hours ago · Like · 2
---Vegan cats:
Someone told me that there is a group that discusses vegan cats. It looks like a good place to get info on the topic.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/126322004672/
Someone told me that there is a group that discusses vegan cats. It looks like a good place to get info on the topic.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/126322004672/
-----
I think that there are serious ethical issues that must be considered
by letting cats wander unsupervised and kill other animals. I personally
would not allow my cats to be outside unsupervised if we had cats. It's
one thing when non-domesticated animals kill other animals. It's quite
another thing when we have domesticates living with us whom we allow to
kill. I also think that there are issues about cats getting hit by cars
and cats getting into fights with other cats and getting FIV, etc.
Domestication is a very bad idea precisely because of problems like this
and we need to think critically about how to deal with issues. But, in
my view, saying that cats will choose meat says nothing. Children will
eat nothing but candy if given the choice. So what?
-------
Camilla Allegret Taurine
is found in meat, but is degraded during processing, so even in
meat-based cat food synthetic taurine is normally added afterwards -
just like taurine is added to vegan cat food.
Try to take a look at the meat-based cat food that your vet sells. You will find an astonishing amount of vegetable ingredients, like cereals (sometimes the main ingredients), vegetable protein extracts, derivatives of vegetable origin, maize, rice, corn gluten meal, soybean oil ... Interesting, isn't it, that even the leading manufacturers of meat-based cat food find vegetables necessary - to feed someone who is "obligate carnivore".
Try to take a look at the meat-based cat food that your vet sells. You will find an astonishing amount of vegetable ingredients, like cereals (sometimes the main ingredients), vegetable protein extracts, derivatives of vegetable origin, maize, rice, corn gluten meal, soybean oil ... Interesting, isn't it, that even the leading manufacturers of meat-based cat food find vegetables necessary - to feed someone who is "obligate carnivore".
Gary L. Francione: The Abolitionist Approach to Animal Rights Aingeal
Clare: It's not a case of whether cats share our sense of moral
disgust. It's a case of how *we* are obligated to behave in order to
accommodate the moral dilemmas created by domesticated animals. Neither
you nor Casey have even recognized those issues, much less addressed
them. I am afraid that the "it's natural" or "cats live by a different
set of rules" response in the context of domesticated animals really
does miss the point.
-------
Gary L. Francione: The Abolitionist Approach to Animal Rights Casey Clague:
A polar bear does not prosper in a zoo. Many, many, many people have
vegan cats who do just fine. So the analogy fails. And nothing about the
life of a modern cat is "natural" in any meaningful sense of the word.
So claiming that we have to feed them meat (particularly when the
taurine must be added) really does not make any sense on any level.
Gary L. Francione: The Abolitionist Approach to Animal Rights Frances Bailey: You state: "My cats always have been indoor cats, thank you very much. Please don't jump to conclusions about me."
I didn't. I merely responded to what *you* said earlier: "For me I think the difference is that most people I know couldn't go out an hunt their own rabbit - they just couldn't kill something themselves. Whereas cats all hunt for themselves and you couldn't stop them if you tried."
I didn't. I merely responded to what *you* said earlier: "For me I think the difference is that most people I know couldn't go out an hunt their own rabbit - they just couldn't kill something themselves. Whereas cats all hunt for themselves and you couldn't stop them if you tried."
------
Gary L. Francione: The Abolitionist Approach to Animal Rights Fur
Paw Care, LLC: Vets know next to nothing about nutritional issues. I
still--in 2013--have vets tell me that it's unhealthy to have dogs on a
vegan diet. Just as human doctors, who are glorified drug company reps,
know little about human nutrition, vets, who are also glorified reps of
drug companies, are ill-informed about nutritional issues. Remember that
the drug industry is closely aligned with animal agriculture.
As for any site being "totalitarian" because it does not want you to promote this nonsense, let me say that I find it very odd that people think that they have some sort of "right" to barge into any space and say what they want and if others are not interested, they are being "totalitarian." No, they just disagree and they find certain views to be morally offensive.
Frankly, the opinion of vets, or Cornell Vet School, or any other vet school, is about as of much interest to me as the opinion of the pet food industry. Indeed, the two are very closely aligned.
As for any site being "totalitarian" because it does not want you to promote this nonsense, let me say that I find it very odd that people think that they have some sort of "right" to barge into any space and say what they want and if others are not interested, they are being "totalitarian." No, they just disagree and they find certain views to be morally offensive.
Frankly, the opinion of vets, or Cornell Vet School, or any other vet school, is about as of much interest to me as the opinion of the pet food industry. Indeed, the two are very closely aligned.
-----------
Elaine Pagano Sloan The
very nature of domestication implies that animals are no longer and can
no longer be thought of as they are in the wild. Domestication is and
of itself includes imposing ourselves on them. They are changed. It
has already been shown they can survive very well and be healthy on
vegan diets. Since they are domesticated animals already, we should
not feel "guilty" about this, in my opinion.
Gary L. Francione: The Abolitionist Approach to Animal Rights Frances Bailey:
I am not saying that there are not all sorts of moral issues involved
in the mess we have created through domestication. I am making a simple
statement: if you live with feline companions and they can prosper on a
vegan diet, we are obligated not to give them animal products. Period.
The Vegan View I
think another point needing to be mentioned is that cats' nature does
not include meat & by products of the lowest quality from industrial
factory farming, junk additives, chemicals, colorings, and
preservatives ... even if one were to adhere to their "natural diet" it
would differ radically from the offerings on the commercial market.
Instead, they would be eating raw insects, lizards, rodents and birds,
grasses, weeds and the opportunistic occasional carrion. Nobody feeds
their cat on a diet such as that. All companion animal diets are
"unnatural." Given that, we have a choice - a cruelty-free unnatural
diet or a diet packed with cruelty (and likely a host of unwanted
additives). What is natural is irrelevant. A domesticated animal's
life is unnatural to begin with. Lets make the most of it, and choose
the more compassionate way to deal with it.
Michelle
Joyce Alison, I fail to see your point. Anyone who lets their cat
starve is irresponsable. That has nothing to do with veganism. And
everyone knows (or should know!) that one should never change a cat's
food overnight. It has to be done gradually.
---
Jennifer Mack I
am currently transitioning my cat to a vegan diet. She has been 50%
vegan for the past two weeks and is doing very well. We'll go 100% vegan
tomorrow. I was very much opposed to the idea, but my thinking has
changed over the last six months. Two things that changed my mind:
hearing a radio interview with someone who worked as a meat inspector
and talked about the diseased animal body parts being used for pet
foods. Also, I met a vegan veterinarian who has two cats who are vegan
and has helped numerous clients transition their cats as well. After
deciding to make the change, I learned that my regular vet is vegan as
well. He confirmed that meat-based pet food is composed of dead, dying,
diseased, decaying animal parts and beaks, feathers, claws, fur, hooves,
and various other bits and pieces not considered fit for human
consumption. Gary Yourofsky, who also worked in a slaughterhouse says
the same. Offal and scraps off the slaughterhouse floor is what they're
including in your beloved pet's food. So, I'm making the change, but am
carefully monitoring my kitty cat's health and watching the pH levels of
her urine as well. The risk is that the urine becomes too acidic, which
can be dangerous. It's much more risky for male cats, and I don't think
I would try it with a male.
---
Gary L. Francione: The Abolitionist Approach to Animal Rights Jennifer Mack:
Good for you. <Also, I met a vegan veterinarian who has two cats who
are vegan and has helped numerous clients transition their cats as
well.> OMG, don't out this person. S/he will have his/her license
withdrawn! Also, the composition of commercial pet foods has been info
out there for a while now. You don't need to get it anedotally.
---
Gary L. Francione: The Abolitionist Approach to Animal Rights Michelle Joyce Alison:
Cats, or at least many of them, do not need meet to thrive. Therefore,
it is not correct to call them obligate carnivores. I agree that people
should be careful and always get competent advice when switching a
companion's diet, but it is simply wrong to say that many cats do not do
just fine on a vegan diet.
---
Camilla Allegret Cats on *plant-based* diets:
Veterinarian Andrew Knight states: "Regular urine pH monitoring is also important to detect urinary alkalinisation, with its consequent potential for urinary stones, blockages and infections, that may result from a vegetarian diet in a small minority of cases. Urinary alkalinisation may be corrected via a range of dietary additives."
http://www.vegepets.info/diets/summary.html
Please note "in a small minority of cases". And please note "may be corrected via a range of dietary additives". Of course this has to be supervised. But there are also cats on *meat-based* diets who get those complications.
See here how to check pH levels:
http://www.vegepets.info/diets/veg_feline.html
See how to minimise the likelihood of alkalinisation, urolithiasis, FUS and urinary tract infections here: http://www.vegepets.info/diets/veg_feline.html
Cats on *meat-based* diets:
Veterinarian Andrew Knight states: "Diseases described in the scientific literature following long-term maintenance of cats and dogs on meat-based diets include kidney, liver, heart, neurologic, visual, neuromuscular and skin diseases, bleeding disorders, birth defects, immunocompromisation and infectious diseases".
http://www.vegepets.info/diets/meat.html#toc12
Could we please stop pretending that meat-based diets are safe for cats. They are *not*. Fact.
Many cats do very well on plant-based cat food. Fact.
Some cats have experienced health benefits by changing from a meat-based to a plant-based diet. Fact.
***Please*** do yourself the favour to *read* the information given in the above links. If your knowledge comes from the pet food industry and/or non-vegan vets - who have heavy monetary interests in maintaining cats (and dogs) on meat-based food - you are per definition not well informed.
Veterinarian Andrew Knight states: "Regular urine pH monitoring is also important to detect urinary alkalinisation, with its consequent potential for urinary stones, blockages and infections, that may result from a vegetarian diet in a small minority of cases. Urinary alkalinisation may be corrected via a range of dietary additives."
http://www.vegepets.info/diets/summary.html
Please note "in a small minority of cases". And please note "may be corrected via a range of dietary additives". Of course this has to be supervised. But there are also cats on *meat-based* diets who get those complications.
See here how to check pH levels:
http://www.vegepets.info/diets/veg_feline.html
See how to minimise the likelihood of alkalinisation, urolithiasis, FUS and urinary tract infections here: http://www.vegepets.info/diets/veg_feline.html
Cats on *meat-based* diets:
Veterinarian Andrew Knight states: "Diseases described in the scientific literature following long-term maintenance of cats and dogs on meat-based diets include kidney, liver, heart, neurologic, visual, neuromuscular and skin diseases, bleeding disorders, birth defects, immunocompromisation and infectious diseases".
http://www.vegepets.info/diets/meat.html#toc12
Could we please stop pretending that meat-based diets are safe for cats. They are *not*. Fact.
Many cats do very well on plant-based cat food. Fact.
Some cats have experienced health benefits by changing from a meat-based to a plant-based diet. Fact.
***Please*** do yourself the favour to *read* the information given in the above links. If your knowledge comes from the pet food industry and/or non-vegan vets - who have heavy monetary interests in maintaining cats (and dogs) on meat-based food - you are per definition not well informed.
----
Camilla Allegret Linda De Pasquale, I use Ami Cat (recommended by a vet).
You may find the group Vegan Cats useful. There are vegan vets connected. https://www.facebook.com/groups/126322004672/?fref=ts
You may find the group Vegan Cats useful. There are vegan vets connected. https://www.facebook.com/groups/126322004672/?fref=ts
Jennifer Mack I've
got Ami dry food and Evolution canned food. Canned food is much better
for your cat's health. Evolution has added taurine and is approved by
AAFCO as meeting the nutritional needs of cats at all life stages. My
cat likes the dark green Evolution can, not so much the olive green
colored can. I think it's Gourmet Entree.
Gary L. Francione: The Abolitionist Approach to Animal Rights Camilla Allegret: Thank you for that longer post with the links. The information is very useful.
--
Camilla Allegret Gro
Ottesen, Taurine is found in meat, but is degraded during processing,
so even in meat-based cat food synthetic taurine is added afterwards -
just like taurine is added to vegan cat food.
Taurine can thus never be an argument for meat-based cat food.
Meat-based cat food is linked to many diseases, including kidney, liver, heart, neurologic, visual, neuromuscular and skin diseases, bleeding disorders, birth defects, immunocompromisation and infectious diseases:
http://www.vegepets.info/diets/meat.html#toc12
Please educate yourself further on this great page made by a veterinarian who has specialized in cat and dog nutrition:
http://www.vegepets.info/
Taurine can thus never be an argument for meat-based cat food.
Meat-based cat food is linked to many diseases, including kidney, liver, heart, neurologic, visual, neuromuscular and skin diseases, bleeding disorders, birth defects, immunocompromisation and infectious diseases:
http://www.vegepets.info/diets/meat.html#toc12
Please educate yourself further on this great page made by a veterinarian who has specialized in cat and dog nutrition:
http://www.vegepets.info/
--
Gary L. Francione: The Abolitionist Approach to Animal Rights Fur
Paw Care, LLC: Based on your previous post, I am now confident that the
reaction you've received from other vegan pages has less to do with
their being "totalitarian" (what does that mean by the way? How can a
Facebook page, where people have the right of free association, be
"totalitarian"?) and more to do with you.
Anyway, if you want to worship academia, that's your business. I was once a tenured member of an Ivy League faculty (Penn) where they did (and do) tons of animal research and where the "experts" said that vivisection was absolutely necessary. Penn Vet School did (and does) tons of vivisection. But the "experts" must be right, eh? Okay, if you say so.
I am now a tenured, chaired faculty member at a large state university (Rutgers) where they do tons of animal research and where the "experts" say that vivisection is absolutely necessary. So the "experts" must be right, eh? Okay, if you say so.
Conventional medical education has been terribly resistant to veganism for humans and is still unwilling to recognize that the data support promoting a vegan diet. But the "experts" must be right, eh? Okay, if you say so.
The fact that conventional veterinary educators are hostile to veganism for cats is no surprise. You might want to inquire how much funding Cornell receives from pet food/animal ag interests. Anyway, if you want to think that the "experts" in academia are right on these matters, that's fine. I disagree.
Anyway, if you want to worship academia, that's your business. I was once a tenured member of an Ivy League faculty (Penn) where they did (and do) tons of animal research and where the "experts" said that vivisection was absolutely necessary. Penn Vet School did (and does) tons of vivisection. But the "experts" must be right, eh? Okay, if you say so.
I am now a tenured, chaired faculty member at a large state university (Rutgers) where they do tons of animal research and where the "experts" say that vivisection is absolutely necessary. So the "experts" must be right, eh? Okay, if you say so.
Conventional medical education has been terribly resistant to veganism for humans and is still unwilling to recognize that the data support promoting a vegan diet. But the "experts" must be right, eh? Okay, if you say so.
The fact that conventional veterinary educators are hostile to veganism for cats is no surprise. You might want to inquire how much funding Cornell receives from pet food/animal ag interests. Anyway, if you want to think that the "experts" in academia are right on these matters, that's fine. I disagree.
Karen Ryan Dear
Gary Francione.....thank you for all your information ...it's people
like you that makes this a sane humane world to which I continue to have
faith and hope and to live ( as well as my animals ) the TRUTH ...you
will always have my respect ~
Gary L. Francione: The Abolitionist Approach to Animal Rights Letizia Pallara: I apologize but this is getting tiresome. Dogs can live perfectly healthy lives on vegan diets. Our dogs have been vegans for decades and our last dog was 17 when he passed and the one before that was 19. And these were rescues who had health issues when we got them. As for cats, most processed cat foods have added taurine because the meat does not have a sufficient amount naturally. And there are vegan taurine supplements for cats. In any event, as far as I know, you are not a cat and you can live a perfectly healthy life as a vegan so if we are going to spend the day talking about your lack of knowledge about nutrition, forgive me if I don't participate.
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