Proofs of Torah, Bible, not being the instructions of the loving Creator

I am starting responding to this this morning, and I am finishing it now after work.

Hope you are doing well and that you slept well!

“Have you abandoned our creator?”

No. I am doing my best to follow the Will of our Creator, to the best of my understanding. This is the purpose of my life and it will always be. Just because I have reached a different conclusion about His Will, doesn’t mean that I have abandoned our Creator.

“Taking away from Torah is prohibited just as adding to.”

According to the redactors whom wrote that passage (and most of Deuteronomy), which according to scholarship occurred much later than when these redactors claimed to have written it.

But how do you know that this passage was inspired by the Creator? How do you know that all that which was in Torah at that time (which according to scholarship was compiled by different authors with different agendas) was the infallible instruction manual of the Creator? How do you know that it wasn’t changed (e.g. at king Josiahs time, it is claimed in the Hebrew Bible that he found the Torah in the ‘temple’ (the scroll had been lost) and after that changed some of the practices of the Israelites [it is very easy for the leadership to do redactions/additions when a document is so rare] .
How do you know that the Creator commanded the Israelites to kill the people and innocent animals of Kan’aan and elsewhere in the Tana''ch [I don’t think He did.]?

How do you know that the authors were honest and sought to do the Will of the Creator? How do you know that the authors understood the Will of our Creator correctly? What is wrong with using our the compassion and love that the Creator has given us and to show it to all His creations, including animals (including not to take their lives )? And to use all of the capabilities we have, our intellect, love and compassion and all facts that are available, and to based on make an as unbiased conclusion as possible about the Will of our Creator?

Why is it safer to assume the Torah to be right (in contradiction with the evidence), than to use the methodology described in the last sentence?

How can it every be righteous to take someones life (and than perhaps defending oneself against someone determined to kill oneself)? Who gave us the right to take any life of an individual, including the animals? How can you know that many of the ancient Israelites (some seem to have disagreed, see Genesis 1 and the vegetable-diet proposed) were right in claiming that the Creator gave them the right to kill certain kinds of His animals?

What way do you think the authors of the Torah used when they tried (if they tried) to understand the Will of our Creator?

“What proof do you have for such a change.”

Proof for Torah not being the infallible instruction manual: I write some evidence in my Facebook-page + including the links [which in themselves contain many good resources to scholarship and archeology related to the Bible, e.g. the lectures of Yale University]. Some exampels: Internal contradictions of Tana’’ch, contradictions with archeology.

What do you think of this link: Link ?

Even 'kosher'  cows are raised in the same industry and they are suffering of all abuse; not to mention losing their family members and their lives.

Errors in Torah, Exodus, Egypt, Canaan, book of Judges, Joshua

Tzophia,
I hope everything is well with you!

I have read through it.

Some of the sources seem to be credible, but it doesn't mean that his conclusions are. His methodology is flawed, e.g. his erroneous assumptions about the world being created in 6 days and a global flood; but some of the references he provides I think are useful to get and to read. [e.g. this book: http://yalepress.yale.edu/yupbooks/book.asp?isbn=0300059191 ]
He may still of course make some correct conclusions, one must, however, be very vary of his bias and how this influences what he write.

Anyways, I think that there was some Israelite presence in Egypt and that the 14:th-century b.c.e. dating is more credible. However, e.g. indication of Israelite presence in Egypt and possibly confirmation of other parts of the account, doesn't prove all stories recounted in Exodus and the rest of the Torah to be correct; and it doesn't provide any proof that the Torah is the infallible instruction manual. But, for many years I did that same mistake (10+ years), so I know how you are reasoning.

What do you think about this research?:

This is a very neat picture of the rapid conquest of Canaan, but it's at odds with statements elsewhere in Joshua and in the book of Judges. For example, the victories in Chapters 2 through 10 are confined to a very small area, what would actually be the tribe of Benjamin basically, so just one small area. In Joshua 13:1: Joshua 13 opens with the statement that Joshua was old, advanced in years, and there was much of the land remaining to be possessed. In Joshua 10 (which is in the first part of Joshua — Joshua 10) verses 36-39 report the conquest of several cities in the south, including Hebron and Debir. But in Judges, we read that they had not been captured: they were captured later, after Joshua's death. Joshua 12:10 reports the defeat of the king of Jerusalem. In Judges 1:8 and 21, we read that the people of Judah did this (conquered the king of Jerusalem) and that despite that victory they failed to actually drive out the inhabitants, the Jebusites, who lived there. And it is not until King David, 200 years later that, in fact, we will read about the capture of Jerusalem. Judges 1 gives a long list of the places from which the Canaanites were not expelled.

Also archaeological evidence contradicts the picture in Joshua. In the Ancient Near East, destroyed cities tended to be leveled, and then a new city would just be built on top of the ruins, and you would have these slowly rising mounds — each one of those is called a tell (so you may have heard of Tell Dor?). These are mounds which represent the successive layers of destroyed and rebuilt cities. And excavations will reveal the destruction layers under the floor of new cities. So following the biblical account, we would expect evidence of a thirteenth century destruction of Canaanite cities. And archaeologists for a long time were convinced that they would find these destruction layers. But they were disappointed. They have found really no evidence of extensive conquest and destruction in thirteenth and twelfth century archaeological layers. Some of the sites that are said to be destroyed by Joshua and the Israelites weren't even occupied in this period, the late Bronze Age, beginning of the Iron Age; the Iron Age begins around 1200. Excavations at Jericho and Ai indicate that both of these towns were laid waste at least 200 years before the probable time of Joshua; so there weren't even any walls in Jericho at the time of Joshua. Of 20 identifiable sites that were said to be conquered or captured by Joshua and the next generations, only two show destruction layers for this time, Hazor and Beth-el. And yet interestingly enough, Hazor's capture described in Joshua is contradicted elsewhere in the Bible, because in Judges 4 and 5, it is still a Canaanite city. It is said there that it is still a Canaanite city and Joshua failed to take it.
[Lecture: http://oyc.yale.edu/religious-studies/rlst-145/lecture-12#transcript ]

Take care my friend!

Torah, moral, intellect, love, compassion

Shalom, peace.

Well, does the Torah contain the instructions of the Creator and is it an infallible book?
I believed that for 10+ years.....

I respect your and everyone elses free will to believe what you believe. I hope that me, you and everyone else will study and just not take any religious book/lifestyle for being true without evidence; and that we should study real factual scholarship, and not the multitude of pseudo-scholarship that is flourishing.

Did you watch this videos from Christine Hayes of Yale University. They are credible, well founded on scholarsip: http://oyc.yale.edu/religious-studies/rlst-145

Surely, there can be errors; but I wonder why so, so few religious persons are studying scholarship about their religion. I for one didn't do this for 10+ years; and if I ever did I had so much of religious baggage and truths that I held to without evidence, that I rejected its conclusions instead of digging deeper into what they taught and what factual basis they had.

The claims of a perfect Torah doesn't stand up for scrutiny. Scholarship demonstrates evidence that Torah and the Bible contains both errors, redactions and contradictions.

Another perspective:
Some moral practises of the Torah that I do not think the Will and Character of our Creator.
Mass-killings (e.g. sacrifices) and allowance of killing the Creator's creations with a soul [there is no proof that they had the Creator's permission/that the Creator endorsed this].
Presumed mass-killings of Kanaanites
Death penalty for those whom work on shabbat.
Death penalty for some kids who behaved in contradiction to the Torah.
Deuteronomy 22:14-22 [the death penalty + the fact that she could get killed without any transgression if she had lost the 'token of virginity' in another way]
Deuteronomy 21:11-14..

And more........

Why? The Creator is the One who has created us and the animals; and we have no right to take the life of what the Creator has given life. Life is precious and highly valuable to the One who created life. So why is it not to some people?

Men are fallible. Men fail in their attempts of understanding the Will of the Creator. The Torah is a mixture of good living-principles; and people who inadvertently/willfully wrote erronously about what they thought was the Will of our Creator.

If I am wrong then please go through the evidence in the lectures above and the vast amount of factual scholarsip they are based on, and prove me wrong.

The Creator gave us our intellect and doesn't want us to just belief in some religious book, because someone else's claims that it is holy and infallible, without any evidence whatsoever [and lots of evidence proving otherwise] of it being an infallible instruction manual from the Creator.

The Creator also gave us love and compassion and want us to use these attributes as well when we interact with all of His creation.

The Creator never gave us permission to take life and kill animals

It is a humane principle; however, it is not humane to argue for the killing of eating animals - whom are created by the Creature, feel emotions and has a soul.

The Creator never gave us permission to take life, i.e. to termimate the life of an animal. Such words are influenced by men. Furthermore, there is proof of Torah-errors and redactions, e.g. see open lectures at Yale university [http://oyc.yale.edu/religious-studies/rlst-145].

Animals are going through a lot of pain and are treated in a way the Creator never intended and if you want to start being a part of the solution and not remain being a part of the problem, this is a great website which can help you: www.gentlebarn.org

B12-vitamin from plants

Regarding B12, please consider this:
"One of the biggest issues plaguing vegans today, is the issue on Vitamin B12 (or the lack thereof) in a vegan diet. This is an issue that surfaces more and more in the media lately and [uninformed] people use this as an excuse not to go vegan. They claim that if humans were meant to be total vegetarians, then why can B12 not be obtained from plants and only from meats. Such statements spread from ignorance and cause disinformation that often leads to heated debates. So what is the truth?

Without too long a penning, world experts today claim that B12 is needed for blood formation and cell division, but neither plants nor animals make it and that bacteria are responsible for producing this vitamin. With a little bit of effort and research, one can easily find independent, peer-reviewed rese
arch outcomes that confirm this claim.

So why then are there so many differing articles and “finds” on the matter. Well, simply because not all plants everywhere are exposed to this bacteria and the only way animals can “have” this vitamin, is if they have eaten something that contained this bacteria. This explains the various results of research conducted under different circumstances, places, etc.

Research also indicates that organically grown plants are a higher and more constant source of Vitamin B12 than fruits and veggies produced commercially. The same goes for animals, even though research has also shown that the commercial meat industry supplies zero B12 due to the animals NOT being exposed to this bacteria. This is nothing new, as this kind of research goes all the way back to 1926.

Therefore, the claim that B12 deficiency is evidence for humans to be omnivores have no foundation and holds no water. The B12 present in plants are totally reliant on how freely the micro fauna and –flora in the ground is allowed to flourish. When these microorganisms are killed off with herbicides and pesticides, the plants will contain very little or no B12." [Quote: Paul J Nel ]

10 minutes ago · Like

Anders Branderud Re. animals proteins.
Our body is not designed for eating animals.
The Creator did not give us the right to take the life of our Creator's sentient beings with a soul; and He did NOT design us for this. Just because a person states this is in "holy book", doen't mean it is true. I actually assumed this for 10+ years, but eventually I was willing to question my premise.

Some evidence re. how the body of the human is designed:
"Since we are primates, designed best for a plant predominant diet, many people have a limited capacity to digest animal proteins efficiently. When we eat a diet rich in animal protein, our ability to efficiently cleave all the amino acid bonds may be limited. All the protein may not be totally broken down into its amino acid building blocks. There is evidence that when animal peptides (pieces of partially broken-down proteins) are absorbed. They can lead to the formation of antibodies against themselves. Our immune system will not only attack these foreign proteins, but it can also cross-react, attacking human proteins in the body that resemble the amino acid sequences found on dietary animal proteins.

In other words, because animal proteins closely resemble the amino acid sequences of human body proteins, our own reaction (antibodies) against inadequately broken down proteins (peptides) can also attack our own tissues. Plant proteins are less likely to cause this reaction, even if their peptides pass into the bloodstream, because they bear little resemblance to human proteins. Because we cannot efficiently dissolve animal proteins in the digestive tract and, frequently, consumption exceeds the digestive capacity, more incompletely digested peptides are apt to be absorbed. These peptides also results in the stimulation of unhealthy bacterial flora and the absorption of toxic bacterial by-products, which can create an inflammatory environment and, hence, immune dysfunction." [Quote: http://www.drfuhrman.com/disease/arthritis.aspx ]

Animal proteins vs eating vegan, will of God/Creator

Re. animals proteins.
Our body is not designed for eating animals.
The Creator did not give us the right to take the life of our Creator's sentient beings with a soul; and He did NOT design us for this. Just because a person states this is in "holy book", doen't mean it is true. I actually assumed this for 10+ years, but eventually I was willing to question my premise.

Some evidence re. how the body of the human is designed:
"Since we are primates, designed best for a plant predominant diet, many people have a limited capacity to digest animal proteins efficiently. When we eat a diet rich in animal protein, our ability to efficiently cleave all the amino acid bonds may be limited. All the protein may not be totally broken down into its amino acid building blocks. There is evidence that when animal peptides (pieces of partially broken-down proteins) are absorbed. They can lead to the formation of antibodies against themselves. Our immune system will not only attack these foreign proteins, but it can also cross-react, attacking human proteins in the body that resemble the amino acid sequences found on dietary animal proteins.

In other words, because animal proteins closely resemble the amino acid sequences of human body proteins, our own reaction (antibodies) against inadequately broken down proteins (peptides) can also attack our own tissues. Plant proteins are less likely to cause this reaction, even if their peptides pass into the bloodstream, because they bear little resemblance to human proteins. Because we cannot efficiently dissolve animal proteins in the digestive tract and, frequently, consumption exceeds the digestive capacity, more incompletely digested peptides are apt to be absorbed. These peptides also results in the stimulation of unhealthy bacterial flora and the absorption of toxic bacterial by-products, which can create an inflammatory environment and, hence, immune dysfunction." [Quote: http://www.drfuhrman.com/disease/arthritis.aspx ]

Truth, Torah, not to lie, not steal, love of His creation

My reply to a friend:
I hope you are doing well!

I am still pursuing to find and to do the Will of our Creator [with all capabilities that I am given, including intellect]; and in my pursuit I found a multitude of redactions of the Torah and also practises which I don't think reflect the Will of our Creator:
like claimed mass-killings of Kanaanites and the great amount of killings (including sacrifices) of our Creators other sapient creations - His beloved animals.

I am continuing to follow principles in the Torah that I regard to be in accordance with the Will of the Creator:
not lieing, not stealing, and other harmful practises that harm the creation of our Creator - people, animals and environment.
I am also continuing doing what benefits His creation, including loving His creation.

What are your thoughts about this; and what are you learning?

Take care!
Have a wonderful day!
Send my love to everyone!


Learn more in my other blog posts, including documentation of redactions.

Errors in the history account of the Bible, Joshua, wars...

Other than the contradictions that Paul already has pointed out in the Torah, there are a multitude of other errors, contradictions and later redactions.

Here is one example:
"Also archaeological evidence contradicts the picture in Joshua. In the Ancient Near East, destroyed cities tended to be leveled, and then a new city would just be built on top of the ruins, and you would have these slowly rising mounds — each one of those is called a tell (so you may have heard of Tell Dor?). These are mounds which represent the successive layers of destroyed and rebuilt cities. And excavations will reveal the destruction layers under the floor of new cities. So following the biblical account, we would expect evidence of a thirteenth century destruction of Canaanite cities. And archaeologists for a long time were convinced that they would find these destruction layers. But they were disappointed. They have found really no evidence of extensive conquest and destruction in thirteenth and twelfth century archaeological layers. Some of the sites that are said to be destroyed by Joshua and the Israelites weren't even occupied in this period, the late Bronze Age, beginning of the Iron Age; the Iron Age begins around 1200. Excavations at Jericho and Ai indicate that both of these towns were laid waste at least 200 years before the probable time of Joshua; so there weren't even any walls in Jericho at the time of Joshua. Of 20 identifiable sites that were said to be conquered or captured by Joshua and the next generations, only two show destruction layers for this time, Hazor and Beth-el. And yet interestingly enough, Hazor's capture described in Joshua is contradicted elsewhere in the Bible, because in Judges 4 and 5, it is still a Canaanite city. It is said there that it is still a Canaanite city and Joshua failed to take it."
[Source: http://oyc.yale.edu/religious-studies/rlst-145/lecture-12 ]

Changes in Torah, errors of Abrahimic religions, Genesis 1 vs Genesis 9

•  Quote Paul Nel:

  Just in the last 2000 years alone the TaNaKH has been changed many times by interpreters choosing their own interpretations to suit their own agendas.
  And so we have discussions. One cannot state all the obvious in one go - that would take a whole website on its own (and as far as I am aware, none such exists presently. It is a matter of searching and searching and searching, like growing. There is no "one click gets it all" solution.
  Each person here is on a different place on this journey of discovering the truth. And so it must remain. People help each other up when they fall, but they don't force others to be at the same mountain top or valley as they are, for such would cause the other person to miss out on they journey - and the journey is as important as the end. Each person must travel this road at his/her own pace, for it is his/her journey. No one else can walk it for you.
  
  Read through the posts and you will find lots of information on the matter.
  There are both intentional- and unintentional errors. Unintentional errors would include errors due to poor sight or tired eyes. Reasons for intentional changes would include political or doctrinal agendas. these are the dangerous ones.
  As an example, and very relevant to this group, would be the original diet given by the Creator to His creation at the end of Bereshith 1. And then, as if He had a change of mind, "He" adjusts this diet in Bereshith 9.
  Now, The ONE constant among ALL the Abrahamic religions is that the Creator changes not. He is omniscient and He saw that all He created was tov (good). We cannot have it both ways. Either we must accept then that He did indeed find fault with His creation and original diet and so changed it to incorporate the killing and eating of His other creations, which would mean that the writings is true, OR, we can accept that He never changes, that indeed His creation was perfect, that indeed He is omniscient and do not make mistakes, which means that the writings were redacted.

Torah, errors, MTT and DSS

I was fundamentally believing Torah to be without errors re. its commandments for the last 11 years - first as a devout Christian for six years. 2007 I started doing my best to keep the commandments of the Books of Moses and rejected Christianity. For a while (and until recently) I had beliefs very similar to the Karaites.
Later on I have started to study more information that scrutinizes what I did believe.

Some of what I have learned recently:
The whole concept that the non-dimensional Creator, who is non-physical, would require/need any physical sacrifice is a concept that some Israelites borrowed from pagan polytheistic religions.
The Creator has NOT commanded us/given us the right to kill any sapient beings, including animals, which He created. The Creator wants us to take care of and love all of His sapients being.

Why would anyone ever assume (as many religious texts do) that the Creator created life and wants man to kill what He has created?

Mikey wrote: "How has it been changed? "
The research on which these Yale University-lectures are based on, is evidence of many errors, contradictions and late redactions of the Torah:
http://oyc.yale.edu/religious-studies/rlst-145/

That MT and DSS are similar doesn't prove anything. The redactions of the Torah took place before this.
The Bible-text itself contains many contradictions.

Torah, killing animals?, vegetarian, Genesis 9, Leviticus 11

My post to a friend:
Hej Sophie!
Thank you for your information and for advocating not to killing animals!!

How are you doing?

You asked me last week if I believed that Torah is the Instructions from our Creator.
I think that parts are in accordance with the Will of our Creator and parts are not.
E.g. I agree with Genesis 1 that reflects that man should only eat plants. I don't agree with Genesis 9, Leviticus 11, etc, that man has permission to slaughter and eat animals...
The Creator gave the animals a nephesh --- not for us to take their lifes. Rather, we should take care of them.

What are your thoughts?

If you think that I am wrong about my new position about Torah, then please study the arguments and prove me wrong. I certainly am doing my best to find the truth about our Creator and what He wants for us.
I can't believe in and follow something (e.g. Torah), which I found many errors in. [This is what I am studying now: http://oyc.yale.edu/religious-studies/rlst-145 - referring to what scholarship is claiming about the Bible. It is not only about the Israelite celebration, but it covers the totality of the Bible - e.g. the accounts of the claimed Israelite invasion of Kanaan. It consists of a lecture series of 18 lectures at Yale university based lots of research by various scholars [including Jewish].]

I will of course stay your friend regardless of what you believe!
I am just trying to be helpful; and I am also sure that you are doing the same!

Take care my friend!!!