Ancient Israelites - erroneous understanding of Torah and god?

Gary,

A few errors? Or much more than a few errors? If you research carefully and without a bias which filters pertinent facts – you will find out.

And even if a religious instruction manual was error-free or consistent with itself – what would that prove?

It still wouldn't prove that the instructions it contains originate from our Creator..

If you assume any religious instruction manual to be true and follow its moral commandments blindly without researching and using all facts available and all of your capabilities to discern if the commandments are desireable and moral, you may end up doing things that are not good.

”What does this have to do with serving our Creator David?? ”

How do we obey our Creator?

By assuming that an ancient people's understanding is correct? How would this be reliable?

How do you think the ancient people – e.g. the Israelites – came to conclusions about what they claimed to be the Will of the Creator?

How can you be sure that the commandments wasn't influenced by their own understanding – i.e. that there are commandments which are solely inspired by themselves and not by the Creator?

” How can you attack Torah from the outside and use outside resources to disprove something they know little about but only make general observations?””

Real, knowledgable scholars do have an intimate knowledge of Israelite culture and practises. Joining the Israelite religion doesn't give access to any secret knowledge.

In fact knowledgable religious Scholars study much more broadly than the vast majority of all adherents to any religion. Adherents to a religion often study very selectively and avoid facts which could cause them to question their religion. And if they ever would study such facts there bias highly affects what they are reading. The same mistake I did when I belonged to Christianity for six years and later to Judaism for five years.

An example of a Scholar is Moshe Weinfeld. I bought his book 'Deuteronomy 1-11'. I will not read it as most religious persons read their religious book – i.e. without questioning the facts and the con clusions made.

Errors in the Bible and in the Quran

Umair Javed,
Hello!

He is correct about that the logical conclusion based on the available evidence is that there exists a Creator whom created this universe.

He assumes without any evidence that the Creator wants us to obey any of the big religions/any religion.
His claims about Judaism and Judaism being exclusively for those whom are born Jews is erroneous. If you study ancient Jewish sources you will see this.
I did for many years insist that the Creator wants us to obey an ancient instruction manual and I believed this manual to be Torah.
I even thought that I had proof…
However, when I started to study I saw that I was wrong about this.
There is no proof for Islam being the religion of the Creator.
Islam advocates killing of animals and some people – which the Creator never has given permission to.
Religious books are attempts by ancient men to either understand the will of the Creator / a way of gaining power.
If you rely on a religious book you rely on the understanding of the author/authors of that book. There is no guarantee that he/they is/are right.
I think that to determine the Will of our Creator we should use all of the capabilities we have, our intellect, love and compassion and all facts that are available; and to based on this make an as unbiased conclusion as possible about the Will of our Creator?

Surely, we can study different religious book and learn from them, but we shouldn't assume that they are right in all of what they do command.

Creator does not allow us to take the lives of His creations-including animals

Jonathan,
"Prove ...that the Creator never gave permission to eat them"
The same logic that prohibits us to take the life of humans.

Why do you think that animals are of less worth than humans?

You would found it reprehensible with someone killing their dog, cat or your horses. I agree it would be terrible!!
The Creator's other beings are of NO less worth.

Assuming a holy book to be true, so many people have hardened their hearts; and think it is of okay to kill some of our Creator's sentient beings.

The Creator gave their lifespan. Who are we to shorten it??
He gave our lifespan and their lifespan for a reason. Slaughter houses many time reduce their life span more than 10 times.

I write only this because I care of you and care of the animals:
You may assume it to be right to take the life of other beings; but it will never change reality.
Reality is that there are no proofs at all that the Creator allowed men to take the life of animals; and that we should take care of His creations -- not kill them!!!

Proofs of Torah, Bible, not being the instructions of the loving Creator

I am starting responding to this this morning, and I am finishing it now after work.

Hope you are doing well and that you slept well!

“Have you abandoned our creator?”

No. I am doing my best to follow the Will of our Creator, to the best of my understanding. This is the purpose of my life and it will always be. Just because I have reached a different conclusion about His Will, doesn’t mean that I have abandoned our Creator.

“Taking away from Torah is prohibited just as adding to.”

According to the redactors whom wrote that passage (and most of Deuteronomy), which according to scholarship occurred much later than when these redactors claimed to have written it.

But how do you know that this passage was inspired by the Creator? How do you know that all that which was in Torah at that time (which according to scholarship was compiled by different authors with different agendas) was the infallible instruction manual of the Creator? How do you know that it wasn’t changed (e.g. at king Josiahs time, it is claimed in the Hebrew Bible that he found the Torah in the ‘temple’ (the scroll had been lost) and after that changed some of the practices of the Israelites [it is very easy for the leadership to do redactions/additions when a document is so rare] .
How do you know that the Creator commanded the Israelites to kill the people and innocent animals of Kan’aan and elsewhere in the Tana''ch [I don’t think He did.]?

How do you know that the authors were honest and sought to do the Will of the Creator? How do you know that the authors understood the Will of our Creator correctly? What is wrong with using our the compassion and love that the Creator has given us and to show it to all His creations, including animals (including not to take their lives )? And to use all of the capabilities we have, our intellect, love and compassion and all facts that are available, and to based on make an as unbiased conclusion as possible about the Will of our Creator?

Why is it safer to assume the Torah to be right (in contradiction with the evidence), than to use the methodology described in the last sentence?

How can it every be righteous to take someones life (and than perhaps defending oneself against someone determined to kill oneself)? Who gave us the right to take any life of an individual, including the animals? How can you know that many of the ancient Israelites (some seem to have disagreed, see Genesis 1 and the vegetable-diet proposed) were right in claiming that the Creator gave them the right to kill certain kinds of His animals?

What way do you think the authors of the Torah used when they tried (if they tried) to understand the Will of our Creator?

“What proof do you have for such a change.”

Proof for Torah not being the infallible instruction manual: I write some evidence in my Facebook-page + including the links [which in themselves contain many good resources to scholarship and archeology related to the Bible, e.g. the lectures of Yale University]. Some exampels: Internal contradictions of Tana’’ch, contradictions with archeology.

What do you think of this link: Link ?

Even 'kosher'  cows are raised in the same industry and they are suffering of all abuse; not to mention losing their family members and their lives.

Errors in Torah, Exodus, Egypt, Canaan, book of Judges, Joshua

Tzophia,
I hope everything is well with you!

I have read through it.

Some of the sources seem to be credible, but it doesn't mean that his conclusions are. His methodology is flawed, e.g. his erroneous assumptions about the world being created in 6 days and a global flood; but some of the references he provides I think are useful to get and to read. [e.g. this book: http://yalepress.yale.edu/yupbooks/book.asp?isbn=0300059191 ]
He may still of course make some correct conclusions, one must, however, be very vary of his bias and how this influences what he write.

Anyways, I think that there was some Israelite presence in Egypt and that the 14:th-century b.c.e. dating is more credible. However, e.g. indication of Israelite presence in Egypt and possibly confirmation of other parts of the account, doesn't prove all stories recounted in Exodus and the rest of the Torah to be correct; and it doesn't provide any proof that the Torah is the infallible instruction manual. But, for many years I did that same mistake (10+ years), so I know how you are reasoning.

What do you think about this research?:

This is a very neat picture of the rapid conquest of Canaan, but it's at odds with statements elsewhere in Joshua and in the book of Judges. For example, the victories in Chapters 2 through 10 are confined to a very small area, what would actually be the tribe of Benjamin basically, so just one small area. In Joshua 13:1: Joshua 13 opens with the statement that Joshua was old, advanced in years, and there was much of the land remaining to be possessed. In Joshua 10 (which is in the first part of Joshua — Joshua 10) verses 36-39 report the conquest of several cities in the south, including Hebron and Debir. But in Judges, we read that they had not been captured: they were captured later, after Joshua's death. Joshua 12:10 reports the defeat of the king of Jerusalem. In Judges 1:8 and 21, we read that the people of Judah did this (conquered the king of Jerusalem) and that despite that victory they failed to actually drive out the inhabitants, the Jebusites, who lived there. And it is not until King David, 200 years later that, in fact, we will read about the capture of Jerusalem. Judges 1 gives a long list of the places from which the Canaanites were not expelled.

Also archaeological evidence contradicts the picture in Joshua. In the Ancient Near East, destroyed cities tended to be leveled, and then a new city would just be built on top of the ruins, and you would have these slowly rising mounds — each one of those is called a tell (so you may have heard of Tell Dor?). These are mounds which represent the successive layers of destroyed and rebuilt cities. And excavations will reveal the destruction layers under the floor of new cities. So following the biblical account, we would expect evidence of a thirteenth century destruction of Canaanite cities. And archaeologists for a long time were convinced that they would find these destruction layers. But they were disappointed. They have found really no evidence of extensive conquest and destruction in thirteenth and twelfth century archaeological layers. Some of the sites that are said to be destroyed by Joshua and the Israelites weren't even occupied in this period, the late Bronze Age, beginning of the Iron Age; the Iron Age begins around 1200. Excavations at Jericho and Ai indicate that both of these towns were laid waste at least 200 years before the probable time of Joshua; so there weren't even any walls in Jericho at the time of Joshua. Of 20 identifiable sites that were said to be conquered or captured by Joshua and the next generations, only two show destruction layers for this time, Hazor and Beth-el. And yet interestingly enough, Hazor's capture described in Joshua is contradicted elsewhere in the Bible, because in Judges 4 and 5, it is still a Canaanite city. It is said there that it is still a Canaanite city and Joshua failed to take it.
[Lecture: http://oyc.yale.edu/religious-studies/rlst-145/lecture-12#transcript ]

Take care my friend!

Torah, moral, intellect, love, compassion

Shalom, peace.

Well, does the Torah contain the instructions of the Creator and is it an infallible book?
I believed that for 10+ years.....

I respect your and everyone elses free will to believe what you believe. I hope that me, you and everyone else will study and just not take any religious book/lifestyle for being true without evidence; and that we should study real factual scholarship, and not the multitude of pseudo-scholarship that is flourishing.

Did you watch this videos from Christine Hayes of Yale University. They are credible, well founded on scholarsip: http://oyc.yale.edu/religious-studies/rlst-145

Surely, there can be errors; but I wonder why so, so few religious persons are studying scholarship about their religion. I for one didn't do this for 10+ years; and if I ever did I had so much of religious baggage and truths that I held to without evidence, that I rejected its conclusions instead of digging deeper into what they taught and what factual basis they had.

The claims of a perfect Torah doesn't stand up for scrutiny. Scholarship demonstrates evidence that Torah and the Bible contains both errors, redactions and contradictions.

Another perspective:
Some moral practises of the Torah that I do not think the Will and Character of our Creator.
Mass-killings (e.g. sacrifices) and allowance of killing the Creator's creations with a soul [there is no proof that they had the Creator's permission/that the Creator endorsed this].
Presumed mass-killings of Kanaanites
Death penalty for those whom work on shabbat.
Death penalty for some kids who behaved in contradiction to the Torah.
Deuteronomy 22:14-22 [the death penalty + the fact that she could get killed without any transgression if she had lost the 'token of virginity' in another way]
Deuteronomy 21:11-14..

And more........

Why? The Creator is the One who has created us and the animals; and we have no right to take the life of what the Creator has given life. Life is precious and highly valuable to the One who created life. So why is it not to some people?

Men are fallible. Men fail in their attempts of understanding the Will of the Creator. The Torah is a mixture of good living-principles; and people who inadvertently/willfully wrote erronously about what they thought was the Will of our Creator.

If I am wrong then please go through the evidence in the lectures above and the vast amount of factual scholarsip they are based on, and prove me wrong.

The Creator gave us our intellect and doesn't want us to just belief in some religious book, because someone else's claims that it is holy and infallible, without any evidence whatsoever [and lots of evidence proving otherwise] of it being an infallible instruction manual from the Creator.

The Creator also gave us love and compassion and want us to use these attributes as well when we interact with all of His creation.

The Creator never gave us permission to take life and kill animals

It is a humane principle; however, it is not humane to argue for the killing of eating animals - whom are created by the Creature, feel emotions and has a soul.

The Creator never gave us permission to take life, i.e. to termimate the life of an animal. Such words are influenced by men. Furthermore, there is proof of Torah-errors and redactions, e.g. see open lectures at Yale university [http://oyc.yale.edu/religious-studies/rlst-145].

Animals are going through a lot of pain and are treated in a way the Creator never intended and if you want to start being a part of the solution and not remain being a part of the problem, this is a great website which can help you: www.gentlebarn.org